Indavl ??

[Bodil Tover Karlsen]

Har gået og tænkt i, at én søskende hane til hønerne, faktisk ikke burde bruges til videre avl 
Eller er jeg helt galt på den 

[Susanne]

Det er meget udbredt, at man bruger søskende og forældre/børn når man avler videre. Faktisk med vilje, endda. Man forstærker de gode egenskaber (og også de dårlige, selvfølgelig), men man skelner slet ikke på samme måde som i menneskeverdenen.

(Jeg skulle også lige vænne mig til tanken)

Hvis det foregår over alt for lang tid, vil æggene blive ubefrugtede eller der vil opstå andre skavanker. Derfor skal der blodfornyelse til med mellemrum.

De rigtig seriøse avlere ved meget mere om det her end jeg gør, så måske får du mere fyldestgførende svar end det her 

[Ankerine]

Uha, det er den evindelige diskussion om indavl. Risikoen er jo at du fordobler uønskede anlæg. Til gengæld kommer det med tiden frem, hvis der er nogen . Men det er  jo ikke altid SYNLIGE anlæg. Nogen kan have betydning for dyrets helbred. Eftersom man jo hos høns kan spise sig ud af evt. problemer så ville jeg ikke overveje det så meget hvis flokken fungerer godt. Det er jo også muligt at der er en positiv effekt fordi man forstærker de positive anlæg. F.eks. havde min mor i årevis en stamme danske landhøns UDEN blodtilførsel. Det gik fint. Selv har jeg engang "produceret" et kuld siameserkillinger med tårnhøj indavlsgrad. Hunkatten lagde ikke mærke til at hun fik p-piller og fik først et kuld killinger med sin bror og derefter med sønnen fra bror/søsterkuld. Ikke noget, man ville gøre med vilje - men det gav altså 8 gennemsunde killinger med få dyrlægebesøg livet igennem og så oven i købet en lang livslængde. Det er ikke noget jeg ville gentage men det er også lidt fordi man med katte jo ikke kan spise problemdyrene ,.

[Bodil Tover Karlsen]

Tak for svarene, var "lidt" bange for at jeg havde stukket hånden i en hvepserede 
Så går jeg ud fra at, jeg roligt kan bruge den samme hane i et par år eller tre. Ellers må jeg jo finde ny hane eller nye høns om et par år.

For gik jo netop og tænkte, at det går ikke at skabe skavanker hos de befjerede 

[Finn Jensen]

Niels Rasmussen fra landrace-klubben har et eksempel på en stamme landhøns, hvor der ikke har været tilført "blodfornyelse" i 26 år!!! Dyrene var lidt for små i forhold til standarden men livskraftige nok. Det er nok et af de mere ekstreme eksempler på det her, men høns er generelt ikke følsomme overfor indavl

[Kaffka]

Har også hørt at Danske Landhøns kan gå i årevis uden blodfornyelse og jeg tror da de fleste racer kan gå i flere år. Har Dorking nu (som der ikke er så mange af i Danmark) og der er ikke kommet blodfornyelse til i årevis fra udlandet. Men det er skam stadig sunde og livlige høns stadigvæk - der er bare ting ved dem som f.eks. størrelsen mm. der ikke er så god mere.

Så det gælder vel om om man udstiller eller ej. For gør man ikke lige det kan det jo være ligemeget om farver og størrelse varierer fra standarden - så længe der selvfølgelig ikke er helt synlige fysiske skavanker.

[Bodil Tover Karlsen]

Okay, Finn, det lyder da også vildt ekstremt   med 26 år.
Dejligt at vide, at jeg ikke forsynder mig på at bruge søskende til avl, ihvertfald indtil videre  

Uha så "klog" jeg bliver på høns i dette forum og hvor er det SKØNT at få brugbar svar fra alle herinde  

[Lene Lestat]

Vi har ikke noget imod indavl, bare det bliver i familien 

Jeg fik af vide, da jeg var nystartet, at man kunne avle en 3-5 år med de samme høns, men jeg har også hørt om dem som har gjort det i længere tid.

Mange opdrættere indenfor alt dyreavl bruger også linieavl, hvor der går nogle af de samme dyr igen i de forskellige generationer.

Far på datter og søn på mor er nok det mest udbredte.

Og hvis man starter med at hanen og hønsene ikke er beslægtet, så kan der gå længere tid, men man skal huske på at de racer som der er få af, nok højst sandsynligt er i familie med hinanden..

Indavl forstærker både positive og dårlige ting.

[thorleif]

Ind-avl eller Linie-avl, er jo egentlig det samme, men for de af jer der er virkelig intresserede giver flg. artikel nogle gode ideer. Jeg er IKKE tilhenger af kamp-haner, men at de der drev med det vidste hvad de gjorde er der ingen tvivel om?

FURTHER BREEDING OPTIONS
Dr Charles R H Everett With Craig Russell

In our most recent Breeder’s Directory, Christine Willard wrote an article entitled "Small Flock Breeding." This article summarized two previous articles on the subject, one by Craig Russell, the other by Dick Demasky; plus, it added information on breeding out-and-out. For those of us involved in preservation the rolling-mating system as advocated by Russell and the clan-mating system as advocated by Demansky are basic. However, there are still other systems that can be utilized by the preservationist in strategic ways.
My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockfighters (cockers) of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. Let me add, however, that this article is not an endorsement or defense of cockfighting; neither will I belie them in any manner. Instead, it is a heartfelt acknowledgement to men who perfected the art of breeding chickens. Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding. (Note* It should go without saying that at all times you must select for vigor and type regardless of the breeding system utilized. Cocker Tan Bark states, "Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl…."
What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. They desired to be able to predict with reasonable accuracy the outcome of any particular mating. For this reason, no cocker worth his salt would have consistently used the out-and-out system. Granted, at times they did cross, but very carefully. Their records consistently indicate that when they did cross they did so using the same strain of fowl they were hoping to improve. Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc.
The system I would introduce was utilized by William Morgan, of Morgan Whitehackle fame, and some of the English cockers. It is a form of breeding known as "3 times in and once out." This system was used to produce, in cockers’ terms, a "pure strain." The following chart will explain how the system works.

First Generation Hen Cock
½ hen ½ cock

Second Generation
Hen to son
Cock to daughter ¾ hen ¾ cock

Third Generation
Hen to grandson
Cock to granddaughter 7/8 hen 7/8 cock

Fourth Generation
Hen to ggrandson
Cock to ggranddaughter 15/16 hen 15/16 cock

Now in the 5th generation you breed the 15/16 hen to the 15/16 cock. Then, choosing the best hen(s) and cock(s) you begin again. C. A. Finsterbusch recommends the same breeding strategy in his famous book Cockfighting All Over the Word page 152—153. If they chose to continue line breeding these fowl were what they termed "seed stock." Seed stock was never pitted. Instead, they were crossed to a different strain to produce their "battle cocks." Battle cocks were never used in breeding pens if this system were employed. Or, at this point you choose the three to five best hens and begin the clan mating system.
Alva Campbell who created the "Campbell Blue Boones" during the early years of the twentieth century line bred his outstanding pullets to one cock, "Daniel Boone," for eleven straight years. D. H. Pierce claimed his "Wisconsin Red Shufflers" were line bred for 35 years with no loss of vigor or gameness.
How did these men accomplish this when so many modern textbooks on poultry genetics maintain this is impossible to do? I have discovered several key answers. First, "an inbreeder must breed only from his most vigorous… specimens." Second, they culled ruthlessly. Third, in any form of line breeding the youthfulness of the stock used cannot be overstated. Fourth, they often carried on the same mating (One cock to one hen) for four or five years. Thus, in twenty years it was possible to have only produced four or five distinct generations. When cockers happened upon a cock and hen that produced winners in the pit, then they mated these two year after year. Fifth, they kept accurate records of every mating and often practiced single matings. Sixth, they only attempted close inbreeding on free range giving the birds every advantage of producing constitutional soundness and vitality. These six keys allowed the cockers to be greatly successful at the art of breeding game fowl centuries before the advent of modern genetics.
Many cockers practiced variations of the rolling-matings and clan-matings systems. When practicing the rolling-matings they would often include side matings of line breeding. When using the clan system the large breeders often kept five to seven clans. (They called them "yards.") With the clan matings they most often used the matriarchal system as advocated by Dick Demansky. At times they would create "new" clans or yards of full sisters when a particular hen within the clan produced exceptional sons. Thus, this one hen became prepotent in the new yard through her daughters.
Like those of traditional farmers, for whom poultry was an important part of the subsistence, the methods of cockers have often been disparaged by modern experts. But for serious preservationists and small flock owners in general their tried and true methods are among the surest ways to turn simple reproduction into serious breeding and systematic flock improvement.
One of the truly wonderful things about raising chickens is that you the breeder can choose your own system of breeding to create your "own strain." Yes, you can even experiment! Regardless of how you personally feel about the sport of cockfighting, these men of a by gone era have much to teach us. So, why not learn from the original preservationist: cockers?

Read more: http://happyhenhouse.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=babies&action=display&thread=11401#ixzz11NDHCFbn

[walter]

Jeg synes lige at det skal med de 26 år, det er en gammel dame hernede i Rinkenæs der har dem gående i en skov hvor de fuldstændigt passer sig selv og har gjordt det i 26 år.Når  hun mangler æg går hun en tur i skoven og samler dem hun finder,jeg synes det er en fantastisk mulighed for blodfornyelse selv om de er blevet lidt mindre med årene.

[Susanne]

Nøjjj, en spændende historie! Og så lige fra morgenstunden!

Er det en speciel slags høns, damen har gående i skoven?

Har de ikke noget hus/læ, de kan gå ind i?

Drikkevand?

Klarede de sidste vinter?

Jeg tænker tit, at vi andre har en tendens til at overbekymre os om vores fjerkræ. Især mht temperatur/læ/sne - alt det, som en agerhøneflok eller en fasanflok nemt klarer helt selv.

Har vi her et eksempel, der gir stof til eftertanke?

Nej, hvor jeg håber, du kan fortælle lidt mere, Walter 

[Heidi NJ]

@ Susanne - det er danske landhøns hun har gående